systemd

Hello -

I wish this was a mailing list.

I installed and I’m fairly impressed up to now. It is good on my laptop, but I don’t think I wuld ever use it on my servers or my workstation. sysadmin is an issue. How do I do the system adminstration. How do I log in at the the window manager as root (yes - I want to do this, no I don’t want to argue about its merits). What happened to the /etc/rc.d/ files?

Ruben

When it comes to servers I personally would not recommend rolling release distributions.
When it comes to workstations it depends on what you want to achieve. An always up to date system which needs regulary updates ?
Then you are right here.

Login as root in a graphical environment shouldn’t be necessary and if it is you should be able to do this from within the tty with startx as the default login manager does not support root logins.

Welcome to the world of systemd. There is a good arch wiki entry for systemd: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd

You can’t log in at a tty and startx because telinit won’t take the system to 3. I can not maintain control of a system like this. I’ve looked at the systemd link. it is no good. It is in the way. Can it be removed so I can control the system properly? If it is a drop in replacement for sysv when where are the files and why isn’t telinit 3 working? Also, I can’t find any logs. I tried to install the system logger but it won’t function and it can not be turned on…

like wow. Where is my linux system.

This is not the correct inpiration. I’ve exercised myself of this crap in 1995 with slackwarr 3.1 I’m not going to go back to that now.

Netrunner Rolling is based off of Manjaro KDE edition, with some Netrunner specific customization and configurations, etc., Manjaro itself uses Arch Linux as a base but with their own repositories, utilities and configurations as well. That being said Arch Linux had switched from SysVinit to systemd a 2 years ago, and has ended support for initscripts.

Here are the announcements:
https://www.archlinux.org/news/systemd-is-now-the-default-on-new-installations/
https://www.archlinux.org/news/end-of-initscripts-support/

But they are not the same thing. sysV and systemd are not related to each other in any way. They are completely apples and oranges.

Yes, I was answering this question:

The rc.d files were used when arch was using SysVinit, which they no longer do since the move to systemd.
Your more than welcom to compare the diference on where they each jeep their scripts:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SysVinit
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/systemd

So this is what I did. I deleted the systemd jounal binarys and loaded up the pacman syslog-ng

What else can I dleete from this thing to get it to let go of my OS. I deleted the core stuff. I need to do development and need my cores.

I’d like to remove it from the loging in system. It has made a complete mess of the simple /etc/passwd and /etc/groups login in system.

Ruben
[hr]
actually, I need to hook the dameans into syslogd. How can i do that?

BTW - if I change the display xdm from ssdm to kdm, it allowed me to log in as root.

Ruben

There is a project to use openrc instead of systemd on Manjaro, here is the wiki to help you out:
https://wiki.manjaro.org/index.php?title=OpenRC,_an_alternative_to_systemd

Please keep in mind that this is not supported by Netrunner, you’ll need to get support from the Manjaro OpenRC team members in Manjaro forums:
https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php
https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=14080.0
https://forum.manjaro.org/index.php?topic=14426.msg145534#msg145534

That’s. This is just my laptop for school though. If i can just get the syslog to work, I’m likely just stop worrying about it until the community gets tired of systemd and switches again this time to something sensible. boy, to think i was once upset with the switch from the BSDinit system to sysV. That was just a just a learning curve. This this is a SERIOUS design flaw.

Systemd just seems to be the way that almost all the Linux distributions are going, we can either accept it or use something else. As far as Arch goes this has been discussed thoroughly and there are no plans of abandoning systemd anytime in the future, the same goes for Manjaro as well for that mater, I just wouldn’t get my hopes up.

That is sad. It will just be time then to move to a different platfrom. Years ago, in the 1990’s I became very fustrated over not being able to get what I needed or my work done on windows 3.1 because it kept crashing. And there was no software. I downloaded 144 floppy disks of slackware 3.1 and installed it and I have essentially worked on that same platform, using the same home directory, since that time. For the last 10 years or so, I had been using opensuse, and before that suse. the last upgrades were so bad that it forced me to begin a search for something new and better. Simple cut and past stopped functioning. X11 failed to work. Access to the core system and getting my custom configuration files to work ended. Systemd was a large cause of thsi maymam. I’ve now tried, in the last 2 weeks, Mint, Salckware, Chakru (so something like that), Umbuntu, netrunner, puupylinux (slacko), and that is so far.

I have to say that not since the 1990s have we had a situation as dire as it presently is. Many of these distros JUST DON’T INSTALL. Opensuse with a gdm boot manager just kicks up a black screen. This is a combined function of not properly identifying the display and having X11 run out of systemd. When I changed the x display manager, it was “OK” but running on lousy resultion. All the tools to configure the monitor and information that might be needed to handle an /etc/x.conf file are GONE.

Systems that required gpart simple refused to partition the hard drive correctly. Slackware explained how to fix this by hand (That god for Patrick), but the system couldn’t find the USB device once it booted up. I could have moved it all to a DVD burn but I just opted to move on. Mint was suprisingly OK. The install withut asking any questions made me nervous. I LIKE to know how the partition tables are being made and laid out. But it worked the laptop fairly well except for the problem with cut and paste on the native touchpad thingie. When I moved my laptop home directory fromt he backup to the laptop, it started to fail in a dozen little ways. The Debian back end fustrated me. It just seemt o me that debian package handlers do the job 90% of the way. I tried to rm -rf / the thing out of fustration and it refused. That really ticked me off so I went back to slackware and repartitioned the drives aagain. that lead me to netrunner.

the good news of netrunner is that it installed and worked out of the box nicely and I like the way they derived the kde interface. the actually kde interface ticks me off because it does things that I’m not aware of. I say drive right, it makes a left and then flies to Colorado looking for a joint and comes back. This was a problem with Elightenment decades ago. It was a great desktop but you never knew what the hell it was doing. You seem to have tamed KDE, which is good. But better, I downloaded Wmaker and it worked correctly. The menugeneration program functioned and pacman is very impressive. It is not a sweet as zypper, but the ability to download SOURCE files and get them to work ports style is very cool.

What is not cool is systemd and NO init files. I refuse to let that damn thing run my laptop. I’ll run my laptop.
Right now, I want to rip out the login system. If I can do that, and keep x11 stable, good to go.

It is a shitty time to be a linux person, right now. Everything is broken and the OS has been locked down and locked up.

Ruben
[hr]

that information isn’t in those links, BTW. I’m looking and exploring.

That’s because Systemd doesn’t call them initscripts, there called service files. I personally remember back in those days as well and using /etc/init.d, etc. so i’m no stranger to initscripts. What systemd is attempting to do is simplify the process of managing the system from just one place /etc/systemd and with less tools, instead of numerous files, in various places, written in different formats, and managed by various different tools. Keep in mind also that systemd is still a very young project itself, and that even in that short amount of time it has grown to be relatively stable and easy to use, only time will tell if it’s worth all the trouble.

Here is a nice blog post on the subject of Arch and the move to systemd from initscripts, it’s really good read I thought.

that is not a good thing. That is a BAD thing. That is the very definition of a bad Operating System, one which is centalized and controled from a single peice of software. This is the old design that sucked with WIndows. It is a design that stiffles inovation, locks down the system, create insecurety, an and would only be done by people who whole want to screw the hell out of you. It would NEVER be done by a competetent designer who wants a free and open system under the control of the user.

There is no long term future in an OS with systemd. It will cause everything around it to choke and die.

Ruben

Again, opinions, everybody has them. I actually despise debating things I don’t entirely understand or even really care enough about. I’ve been using Manjaro since version 0.1.2, well before the divergence from arch proper, and before that I used Arch itself, so I know the system well enough to be helpful here in the forums, I’m not for or against systemd, sysvinit, bsd init scripts, OpenRC, etc. I couldn’t give a rats tail-end as long as they work as their designed to, I’m not a developer, I’m more or less just an end user and a DJ that just want’s my system to work.

Well, I’m not a DJ. I’m a Pharmacist and I also have work to get done, and systemd is NOT sysv, or bsd init or openrc. It is a WRAPPER for the kernel that controls access to kernel resources and has swallowed most of the innovative project that produced the GNU/Linux system. The fact that there are NO initiation scripts in netrunner is ominous. This is not an opionion any more than saying “the world is round” is an opinion. This is a leathal blow to the delopment of the GNU/Linux platform. Everything is now locked down and locked up. it is. This is not an opinion, it is fact within netrunner. I can’t effectly replace syslog or Vixies DHCPD or install my normal bind binaries. It has also made a mess of the administration rights. It just can’t live without making me an ‘admin’ My Account is NOT admin. That is what root is for. It will not telinit into run level 3. In fact, it has swallowed X11 which is a HUGE problem…etc etc.

What makes this system nice is that the community can easily contribute through pacman and one can leverge that and learn. I won’t make any differece though, if everything is swallowed by systemd.

Ruben

While you make a good argument, you also need to be aware that the /bin, /sbin, /lib /lib64 and /default directories have all been merged with their equivalent locations under /usr and only symlinks are left in the / directory.

Everything you mentioned should have a compatible way of working with systemd in one way or another:
You don’t realy need syslog, you have the systemd journal.

$ journalctl

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd#Systemd_Journal

syslog: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/syslog/
Besides the standard syslog demon that comes with the system there is also rsyslog or syslog-ng in the Manjaro repositories, they are both compiled to play nice with systemd, and there are even more available from the AUR as well.

While I do know what DHCPD is, I’m not quite sure what Vixies DHCPD is so i can’t answer this one, I’m also not sure what bind binaries has to do with systemd, you can use systemd service files to start any kind of binary at boot as long as the dependencies are loaded as well.

As far as administrator rights are conserned they are defined using sudo just like any other system, you can also always use su or log in as root directly, this is not Ubuntu that has removed the root user access completely from the system.
If you wish to make your default user an administrator and not just a user this can be done using the Manjaro Settings Manager > Users utility quote easily, I have actually already done this on my system.

[attachment=458]

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd_FAQ

There is a lot of misconceptions floating about the internet on what and how systemd is and works.

This is not a system journaling program. it is compiling a bunch of information in a binary state, including even core files. I have no use for this binary accumulation of data, and I’m not certain what it is doing with this binary file so I just deleted it. A process that accumulates a bunch of information on your system in a binary has no place on a privately owned computer. I need a system loger, something that programs can report to to put their plain english messages into as a text readable file. Anything else for logging purposes is not acceptable. This is why I need to make syslogd function correctly. I have started the syslogger, but now I need to reeastablish the loggin facilities of dameans back to it. Do you have intructions on how to do it?

That is not a system logger. That is some kind of internal garbage for systemd. I need the log files that damean report, not a program that collects data into a binary.

I downloaded them and them, the last being syslog-ng. It didn;t function with systemd. It is started, but systemd is redirecting the data away from syslog.

Do you know how I can fix this so I can get my dameons and apache server environment to function smoothly.

Paul Vixie is the innovative programmer who invented the practicle solution to DNS and the controlled network assignments on boot through DHCPD. Others followed but I use the latest version of BIND and DHCPD in my production departments, compiled from the original source with some minor and not so minor recoding and alterations. People like Paul Vivie no longer have a place in the post systemd linux world because everything is cludged into that animal (in an insecure way I might add if you ever audit some of the code).

This concept is dangerous and alein to secure GNU like systems. There is ONE system admin account, ROOT.
This is not some fly by night OS. This is GNU and we don’t have 20 levels of adminstration all making the system insecure in an adhoc way.

And much of it is in that FAQ. for one thing, systemd is NOT a drop in replacement init system. That is just a lie. It is a completely different paradign. It is a wrapper for the kernel, which blurs the line betwen user and kernel space, even taking over such kernel functions as virtual terminals, device management, and more. It is a full blown obstruction which polices every access to system resources and development and it will not allow anything to run outside of its ever growing domain. It is insecure and difficult to maintain and it is frankly unpredicatable and difficult to work with. It duplicates every critical need and glad hands user constructed resources and configurations by redefining them as ‘units’ which is the only thing it really understands. And that is before you get into any discussion of things like what it does to device names which went from ‘eth0 eth1’ to ‘epsoichn221 epsoichn222’ .

This is not an acceptable happening. It has to go or Linux has to go.
[hr]
http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.directives.html
This is a more realisitc view of what systemd IS.

OK, If systemd is an issue for you then it’s just that, I’m not here to convince you to use anything that your not comfortable with, as I said earlier, there is also the Manjaro OpenRC project if you wish to go that route as well, but again this is not officially supported.

I could care less about init systems or system loggers, etc. as long as my system works and keeps my data fairly secure I’m happy with it. No amount of discussing this with me is going to change anything about Netrunner Rolling or any other Linux distributions decisions for that mater. I’m not a developer, a system administrator or a security expert, and I have no desire to be, I’m just a moderator and tech support person here in the forums.

As far as your feelings about systemd being this big bad wolf that’s going to blow your Linux house down, I know of many professional system administrators that would wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of it, and others that may even agree with you, only time will tell who is right or and who is wrong.

I would have to apologize now as I have no desire to continue this discussion any further. You would be better served by having this discussion with someone more knowledgeable about the philosophical implications of it all than I.

For me this arguing over systemd is childish and un nessasary, as an end user I dont give a crap about systemd or how its the work of satan and is like windows blah blah blah.
All I care about is if my system boots up, loads and operates as it should.
Sure the caveats with arch are numerous but I am willing to give it a go.
But really a return to init seems like a step in the wrong direction, I actually like the speed and power of systemd without the need to load all kinds of scripts in the background.
If anything my system has never been faster nor more stable ever since systemd became a standard.
For you developers groaning about systemd I say grow up, stop filling these forums with your whiny baby nonsense or just buy a mac and leave us be.

no, what is childish is for someone to critisize someone elses observations when you admit that you have no clue how anything works in the first place. If you don’t care how it works and how it DOESN’T work and what it breaks and how things function, then you coming here to waste everyones time expressing an opinion based on nonsense is childish.

FWIW, it doesn’t load and operate “as it should” but since you don’t know how it the OS operates and what it does, then you opinion is not only childish, but also ignorant.

As far as this nonsense about satan etc… it is just more childishness. What you don’t understand, you just come out of the blue guns blazing trolling. Why don’t you just admit, as you did, that you don’t really know what the heck your talking about and what issues are being discussed here, and furthermore admit that you couldn’t care less, which you also admit, and save everyone the trouble of an opinion based your admited ignorance.

That is not how it functions, but since your admitiedly ignorant and don’t want to learn anything, why bother posting this incorrect information.

That is factually INACCURATE, but don’t let that stop a good trolling.

Don’t read it then. In fact, your opinion stated here is so admittedly ignorant of the facts, that I would have thought that you would want the Mac. You don’t care how anything works and Macs are pretty well locked down as far as UNIX derivatives are concern, so it should be fine and dandy for you. Mac users can remain as ignorant as they wish and that makes Apple all so much happier. You have to pay for it, but that is a small price to pay for something that just works.

For me, I’ve used the same OS and environment for 18 years without interruption until the systemd upgrades. That kind of stability doesn’t just come out of half thought up hair brained trolling ignorance. It comes out of considerable foresight, deep insight, and considerable education, which are all things your posting says you find distasteful.

Systemd, otoh, has wrecked the stability of that system and destroyed the underlining design principles for the OS, you know the design principles created by Nobel lauretes, MacCarthy winners, and men of letters and experience, and backed by over 50 years of rock solid research and development, and not pulled out of the “red” hat of some internet troll.

But as a matter of education, Steve Jobs, just as an example, created an OS which worked just like systemd. Everything was controlled by a single uniform piece of software. It became so impossible to maintain and improve on that he abandoned it for an os “full of scripts” as you ignorantly put it. In order to move forward he realized he had to give up control of the OS and adopted the BSD model, which they then proceeded to lock down as much as possible from the end user… because I suppose ultimately this selfishness people never learn to outgrow.

The real question here for you is not to use systemd or to use systemd. You couldn’t care less even though in your ignorance you fail to understand how this will deeply affect your future availability of innovative software and the availability of an open platform to work under. The real question for you is if you will or will not continue to be one of these selfish people who never learn to outgrown their petty selfishness and need to control everything around themselves. That is the only deeply philosophical question you need to answer. Leave the rest of us to worry about the implications of adding obstructive software to the core of the GNU/Linux system, since you have stated bluntly that you don’t care about these things and have no desire to learn about them.

Ruben